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Post by Sandy Pines on Jan 22, 2010 21:20:05 GMT -5
Why does God allow good people to suffer? (sickness, abuse, cancer etc.)
I already know the possible answer to this, but I want to see what you guys have to say first (hence making it a debate).
Debate away!
I'll post my response after I see what other people have said first, then I will compare my answer with others' answers.
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kepi
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Post by kepi on Jan 23, 2010 14:36:02 GMT -5
This is why I don't understand why people worship god. If god is "all powerful" then he has created all the bad things in this world. If he has so much power he could stop poverty and starvation. Why would we worship somebody who is doing so many bad things? I just don't understand.
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Post by Sandy Pines on Jan 23, 2010 15:04:02 GMT -5
This is why I don't understand why people worship god. If god is "all powerful" then he has created all the bad things in this world. If he has so much power he could stop poverty and starvation. Why would we worship somebody who is doing so many bad things? I just don't understand. Thanks for your opinion on this. (And welcome to Project:informed! I hope you enjoy your stay here! ) My comment on your post: My opinion is that God did not create evil. A good illustration is heat and cold. What is cold? The Absence of Heat. Without heat; there is cold remaining. Well then what is evil? Evil is the absence of God in peoples' lives. Without God; there is evil left in people's hearts and minds. (Note: I am not calling *everyone* who doesn't believe in God evil). You also brought up Poverty and Starvation. Here is a pretty good article explaining this, "And what about hunger and poverty? God did not create this inequality in the world's wealth or standard of living. He has provided more than enough food and other natural resources so that no one needs to go hungry or be deprived of other basic needs. The world can produce enough food to feed its expanding population. While some famines are caused by drought or other natural disasters, most starvation today could be avoided were it not for man's selfishness and inhumanity. War, embargoes, government corruption, and economic oppression are all to blame. While innocent children starve, some rich nations destroy millions of tons of food in order to keep prices artificially high. Then there is the health question. If God is so righteous, why does He allow sickness? Much of the suffering brought about by sickness is also man-made. We disobey God's health rules and eat ourselves sick on processed junk food made from genetically altered ingredients and laced with chemical preservatives. We also voluntarily make ourselves sick by smoking, drinking in excess, and taking prescription and illegal drugs that cause cancer and heart disease or harm our minds and bodies in other ways. The stress and rush of our unnatural modern lifestyle also contributes to many psychosomatic illnesses such as severe headaches, stomach ulcers, and heart trouble."
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Post by Josh on Jan 23, 2010 15:36:29 GMT -5
Welcome, kepi!
SP summed it up really well. Evil is the absence of good, which God created. Just as dark is the absence of light, or cold is the absence of heat.
Also, the free will that God has given us allows evil, so that we're not robotic prisoners without free will. Heaven, the ultimate goal, is that universe of perfection, no evil, no suffering.
Again, welcome!
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Jed
Junior Member
Ruff!
Posts: 54
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Post by Jed on Jan 24, 2010 10:34:39 GMT -5
God allows suffering to bring about a greater good.
We don't know everything about God, but let's look at what we do know from what he has revealed:
Because he allows suffering does not mean he is bad, on the contrary, God is so good that He can take something as horrible as the most severe suffering and death and bring good out of it. Case in point; Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, suffered and died on the cross for what? - a greater good - the redemption of mankind.
When we suffer we can do one of two things with it. We can waste it or we can use it. God says we can use it in a way that is known as "redemptive suffering". This is another mystery, but what we know is that God makes good come out of it if we join it to the suffering of Jesus. A sample of Sacred Scripture that alludes to this is Colossians 1:24 when Paul who was being tortured says "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ.."
We can't know it all now, but it won't be long and these mysteries will be crystal clear and every tear will be wiped dry.
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Post by Sandy Pines on Jan 24, 2010 14:57:23 GMT -5
I was reading in the book of James last night and this passage just stood out to me because it is talking about this topic. It's awesome how the Grace of God works.
James 1:2-18
"2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 5If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. 6But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; 8he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.
9The brother in humble circumstances ought to take pride in his high position. 10But the one who is rich should take pride in his low position, because he will pass away like a wild flower. 11For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich man will fade away even while he goes about his business.
12Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.
13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
16Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. 17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. 18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created."
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Post by Josh on Jan 24, 2010 16:58:17 GMT -5
Wow, that's great. Very applicable to what we're talking about, it's amazing how that happens.
Thanks for posting that.
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kepi
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Post by kepi on Jan 25, 2010 14:03:11 GMT -5
So god [if he is real] allows people to starve even though he has the powers to stop it? But it's okay for him to do that because he gave us the tools to do it? So if you see Sue hurt Tom and you have the power to stop it you shouldn't stop it because Sue has the ability to stop it?
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Post by Krashings on Jan 25, 2010 14:26:37 GMT -5
It's all so complex... I would believe in god, if there was proof and not so many logical contradictions. I see that hope that he gives people, but I also see the damage that religion does. People murder in the name of a god. Plus there's just no real actual proof.
Bottom line, is he really such a good guy if he allows such bad things?
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Post by Sandy Pines on Jan 26, 2010 17:10:56 GMT -5
Take note of the message at the bottom of this post. Thanks!So god [if he is real] allows people to starve even though he has the powers to stop it? But it's okay for him to do that because he gave us the tools to do it? So if you see Sue hurt Tom and you have the power to stop it you shouldn't stop it because Sue has the ability to stop it? That's a good question. It stumped me a bit, but after doing a little research I found what I believe is the answer. This person sums it up very well. "If there is a good God in the universe, then why do innocent children have to suffer at the hands of bad people? This is a good question. After all, what have little children done to deserve punishment or suffering? Nothing. Yet, they suffer. If God is all loving and all powerful, why doesn't He stop this injustice from happening? It is true that God is good. His nature is holy and He is loving and patient. But, God is also just and wise. He created Adam and Eve and put them into the Garden of Eden and gave them dominion over the world. This dominion was not merely a functional one. It was also representational. In other words, Adam was the Federal Head over mankind. This means that Adam represented all of mankind.1 When he fell into sin, the Bible teaches that we fell with him (Rom. 5:12-21). Another way of looking at it is that Adam contained all of us in representative form, in his life and in His seed. When he fell, we inherited not only a sinful nature from Adam by simply being born, but we also inherited a world affected by sin as well. What we inherited from Adam was not only a sinful nature, but also a world affected by sin: death, decay, disasters, etc. Furthermore, since we are made in the image of God and we are not robots without free will, God has given to us the stature and responsibility of managing what has been given to us. Therefore, God has given us a world that was good to begin with, but fell because of Adam. In this world, because we are like God in that we have responsibility and free will, we live with the consequences of our actions. Unfortunately, the consequences of sin is that sometimes the innocent suffer. However, technically speaking, not even the children are innocent. The Bible says that all people are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3). Like it or not, the sin of Adam is imputed, or reckoned to each individual that Adam represented the same way that the righteousness of Jesus is imputed, or reckoned to each individual that He represented. If someone wants to say that it is unfair for Adam to represent us in the Fall, then they must also conclude that it is unfair for Jesus to represent us on the cross. This latter case would mean that would not have salvation. This is why God set up the idea of representation, so that we could be saved. The seemingly unfortunate consequence of this is that it means we also must continue to suffer the effects of the failure that was begun by Adam. Therefore, though God can intervene and stop people from suffering, and He probably does already without our knowing it, there are still those who will suffer in this world due to the effects of sin in people and on creation." It's all so complex... I would believe in god, if there was proof and not so many logical contradictions. I see that hope that he gives people, but I also see the damage that religion does. People murder in the name of a god. Plus there's just no real actual proof. Bottom line, is he really such a good guy if he allows such bad things? 1.) What contradictions do you speak of? 2.) Yes, religion in the past has done damage...but 'religion' is a very broad term. There are hundreds (or even thousands, I don't know) of religions out in the world. While considering damage done, it seems you are talking about Christianity, so you have to ask if a Fundamental Christian made the damage done. And you have to see if they're a true Christian, because even "Christian" is a broad term in today's world because there are 'false believers' in the world to wreak havoc in the Christian church who are posing to be Christians. I personally don't consider Christianity a religion at all, just a mere relationship with God. 3.) People may murder in the name of a god, but does that mean it is the one and true God that they are murdering for? There are many false religions and false 'gods' out in the world we live in today. In all honesty, if an individual is a true Bible believing Christian then they wouldn't murder at all (unless it's in a case of a war, etc.). God teaches us not to murder. I'd also argue the point that there is proof. It is true that God wants us to believe faith based, but he has left evidence for the people who won't believe so lightly. Here's a link that I posted that I believe to be plausible evidence of God being our true creator. projectinformed.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=religious&thread=95&page=1#1117Let's not take this off topic to a 'Is God real or not' topic. If you like, you could make a thread concerning this topic but for now let's keep this to the original post's topic.
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rugz
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Post by rugz on Jan 29, 2010 23:49:12 GMT -5
Why blame God for the sufferings? For me, God has nothing to do with all the sufferings we have. It is the human works and works undone. If you don't do anything, you will get hungry, no matter how long you are praying.
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Post by Josh on Jan 30, 2010 2:42:36 GMT -5
Good point there, rugz. Constant miraculous intervention just takes the fun out of life anyways, no?...
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rugz
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Post by rugz on Jan 31, 2010 2:30:11 GMT -5
Nothing happen if done nothing.
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ali
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Post by ali on Feb 2, 2010 18:28:38 GMT -5
God gave humanity the chance to have a perfect world without suffering, and we turned him down. Adam and Eve lived in a world without pain, but because he didn't want them to be robots that loved him because he told them to, he gave them the choice to live in a perfect world with him or to live in a painful world of sin. They chose the imperfect world.
For now, Satan is the ruler of this world, here on earth. That is why there is so much suffering on earth. Because sin rules the hearts of man.
That's the best answer I can give. I don't understand a lot of stuff like this, but I know God will make it right in the end.
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Post by Sandy Pines on Feb 2, 2010 21:15:03 GMT -5
God gave humanity the chance to have a perfect world without suffering, and we turned him down. Adam and Eve lived in a world without pain, but because he didn't want them to be robots that loved him because he told them to, he gave them the choice to live in a perfect world with him or to live in a painful world of sin. They chose the imperfect world. For now, Satan is the ruler of this world, here on earth. That is why there is so much suffering on earth. Because sin rules the hearts of man. That's the best answer I can give. I don't understand a lot of stuff like this, but I know God will make it right in the end. Well said.
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