ali
New Member
Posts: 20
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Heaven
Jul 11, 2010 18:52:10 GMT -5
Post by ali on Jul 11, 2010 18:52:10 GMT -5
I meant "flesh" as in your human side, our human desire to sin. so that "flesh", is indeed bad. I still hold to my statement that you can live a sinful life and go to Heaven. Our salvation isn't based on how we live our lives, it's based on how Christ lived, died, and rose again. Our salvation has absolutely nothing to do with our actions. That said, once we accept the Holy Spirit, a desire for godliness enters us and from then on it's a struggle between the Spirit and flesh. How we're blessed on earth is dictated by how we handle that struggle, but once we have accepted God's grace, nothing will take away our eternal salvation. (What we do on earth also influences the "riches" we get in Heaven, but who knows what that will look like?) Now, please take into account that this is a very cut and dry statement, and I do acknowledge that faith without works is dead. I just think that we cannot be self important enough to think that how we live would ever help us get into Heaven.
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Heaven
Jul 11, 2010 19:35:37 GMT -5
Post by Sandy Pines on Jul 11, 2010 19:35:37 GMT -5
I meant "flesh" as in your human side, our human desire to sin. so that "flesh", is indeed bad. I still hold to my statement that you can live a sinful life and go to Heaven. Our salvation isn't based on how we live our lives, it's based on how Christ lived, died, and rose again. Our salvation has absolutely nothing to do with our actions. That said, once we accept the Holy Spirit, a desire for godliness enters us and from then on it's a struggle between the Spirit and flesh. How we're blessed on earth is dictated by how we handle that struggle, but once we have accepted God's grace, nothing will take away our eternal salvation. (What we do on earth also influences the "riches" we get in Heaven, but who knows what that will look like?) Now, please take into account that this is a very cut and dry statement, and I do acknowledge that faith without works is dead. I just think that we cannot be self important enough to think that how we live would ever help us get into Heaven. I would have to agree with what you said here.
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Heaven
Jul 14, 2010 20:13:58 GMT -5
Post by thebandit on Jul 14, 2010 20:13:58 GMT -5
But as I said in "how we live", meaning imitating Christ and his saints, helps us get to Heaven, I never meant we do it with the air of self importance or self dependence. We must fully trust God, beg God to help us to live like Him. We could never do it by ourselves. That's impossible. Although we can't say, "God, let me live like You," and then leave it at that. We have to put in our effort. That's actually one of the definitions of hope that I like: to fully trust that God will, in His goodness, provide the means to obtain salvation to His faithful ones. The main chunk is done; Christ died to re-open the gates of Heaven to mankind. But now that the gates are opened, we must obtain it. With the help of God.
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ali
New Member
Posts: 20
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Heaven
Jul 14, 2010 22:36:03 GMT -5
Post by ali on Jul 14, 2010 22:36:03 GMT -5
mmm sorry but i still disagree. even imitating Christ doesn't "help us get into heaven". i think i get what you're saying, but i'm gonna say what i think you're saying just to clarify, and you can correct me if i'm wrong. first of all, we both agree that humans are sinful down to the bone, everything that comes out of a human heart is evil/selfish. right?
Jesus sacrificed Himself, so that it was possible for us to be saved. as you said to "re-open the gates of Heaven to mankind." so the option of Heaven is open to us, we just have to get ourselves there? so if on judgment day, someone who has accepted God's gift, and whole-heartedly repented of their sins, but a couple years later gets hooked on meth and never get clean or repent of it, they go to hell.
and here's what I think. if I seem like I'm being petty, i'm not trying to be at all, i just really want to understand where you're coming from and what the difference is between our opinions.
I think that Jesus sacrificed himself to fully take our place. that means that the offer's on the table to get to Heaven. so if someone chose to take that offer, God the Father would look at this guy and not see him, but see Jesus. so when this guy dies and goes before God, Jesus steps up and says, "hey, this guy's with me". so without even looking at his life, God let's him in. so if the guy accepts Jesus as his sacrifice, and is genuinely penitent, but being human gets drawn back into a life of sin, he is still saved.
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Heaven
Aug 2, 2010 15:58:46 GMT -5
Post by thebandit on Aug 2, 2010 15:58:46 GMT -5
Hey, no, that's ok. I like hearing (or, in this case, reading) other people's opinions. The main difference between our opinions is that, if I'm taking this correctly, that you're saying that if a person genuinely repents and accepts Christ as his Lord and Savior at at least one point in his life, he is saved, no matter what he does throughout the rest of his life. I agree with you, except on this one concept, and I quote: "so if on judgment day, someone who has accepted God's gift, and whole-heartedly repented of their sins, but a couple years later gets hooked on meth and never get clean or repent of it, they go to hell." Yes, that's what I believe. I never like judging whether or not a person went to Hell, because he could have repented at the last moment before he died, and begged God for His mercy. But think about it. Just as a sinner can turn into a saint, a saint can turn into a sinner. Let's take this example. There's this guy. Normal guy. Is married, has a nine-year-old and a five-year-old. Has a good job, is frugal, spends time with family, donates to charity, and goes to church every Sunday. Is totally commited to Christ. Then, let's say he got promoted, became wealthy, and it all went to his head. He began to drink, do drugs, gamble, commit adultery, etc. He never set foot in a church again. He lived the rest of his life in this manner. Died. Now, because he accepted Christ at that one point in his life, but lived horribly for the rest, he goes to Heaven? Because he messed up his life and the life of his family and of others, and wasn't the least sorry for it, he obtains paradise because he has "insurance"? I'll go a step farther. Let's say all that happened, and then, because he's now a mercenary, he becomes a terrorist, and kills thousands upon thousands of people. And not only is he not sorry for it, he rejoices in his evil doing. God is Love, and the opposite is hate; this man is obsessed with hating. There is no possible way I can see it logical that he would see God. Accepting Christ isn't insurance; it must be continual. Now, I'm not saying that we can't sin, "because if we do, we'll absolutely go to hell." Yes, indeed, it is almost impossibe to avoid sinning completely, because we have such a strong inclination to it. But God gave us free will. The ability to choose. Every time we are confronted with a temptation to sin, we have a choice: give in or say no. And sometimes when we say "No" it means to fight it. If we ask God for His grace, which He is always so generously willing to give, we can overcome these temptations. And if we sin, all we need to do is ask for forgiveness. Because God is so awesomely merciful, He will forgive us. But we must be sorry. And being sorry doesn't necessarily mean FEELING sorry with our emotions; we can't always control those. We say we are sorry, and act upon that by sincerely trying our very hardest not to offend our great God again. It's just like love is not always felt. Jesus said, "Love your enemies." We can't always feel love for them, but we refrain from saying a nasty word as they butt in front of us in I've-been-waiting-for-two-hours-now-checkout-line at the mall because we love God. I'll put the story in reverse real quickly to get the sinner-to-saint theory here. The guy does all the bad things I mentioned. In fact, he's a terrorist. But then he repents. He is truly sorry for his sins and implores God for His mercy. Then he reforms his life. God will surely open His gates for him, because Christ will tell the Father, "My sheep was lost, but now I have found him. Let us rejoice!" Anyways, I think that's the main difference between our opinions.
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Heaven
Aug 2, 2010 17:01:28 GMT -5
Post by Sandy Pines on Aug 2, 2010 17:01:28 GMT -5
That's awesome, I like seeing that open-mindedness attitude from people. From what I have read so far it seems that you believe that people have the possibility to lose their salvation. There is some scripture that may lead you think that, but I would have to disagree. Here's a good passage from a book that I am reading that tells you why I believe people can't lose their salvation. This is from the book "5 Minute apologetics for today" by Ron Rhodes. "Day 258, Secure Salvation. When people trust in Christ and become part of God's forever family, they are saved forever (Romans 8:28-30). Regardless of what children of God do from then on, they are saved. That does not mean Christians can get away with anything. If children of God sin and refuse to repent, God brings discipline -- sometimes very severe discipline -- into their lives to bring them to repentance (Hebrews 12:4-11). Christians will either respond to God's light or to His heat. Ephesians 4:30 says we are sealed for the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit. This seal--which indicates ownership, authority, and security--cannot be broken. The seal guarantees our entry into heaven. Further, the Father keeps us in His sovereign hands, and no one can take us out of His hands (John 10:28-30; 13:1). God has us in His firm grip, and God's plans cannot be thwarted (Isaiah 14:24). Still further, the Lord Jesus Himself regularly intercedes and prays for us (Hebrews 7:25). His work of intercession, as pour divine High Priest, is necessary because of our weaknesses, our helplessness, and our immaturity as children of God. He knows our limitations. He is therefore faithful to make intercession for us (see Luke 22:31-32). Additionally, Romans 8:29-39 portrays an unbroken chain that spans from predestination for believers to their future glorification in heaven. This indicates the certainty of all believers reaching heaven." To add further to that passage, you cannot lose your salvation but you can lose your rewards that you have gained previously for heaven. These rewards are called "crowns" in revelations. Those that weren't as faithful will lose their crowns that they once previously had. Revelations also says that "some will barely escape the flames" (sorry forgot which passage). This indicates that some Christians will be so faithless and unrepentant that they were blessed to be saved in the first place. Saints are sinners too, though. Our pastors are sinners just like you and I. (Sorry if I offend you by saying Pastor, I'm not sure what they call the church teachers in the roman catholic faith). We will always be sinners but since we accepted Jesus sacrifice he will no longer see the sin in us, but see the Jesus in us. If he truthfully accepted Christ he would still be saved. But as the Bible says, some will claim to be of the faith but are actually false Christians, which this person may have been (it depends if he truly accepted Christ). In that case, we should question if he had salvation in the first place. We also have to keep in mind that we are all sinners and all sin is equal in God's eyes. We sin almost every day. Lying or thinking dirty thoughts are just as a big of sin as getting addicted to meth or having premarital sex. All sin is equal and that sin has been paid for, It's just a matter of if the person that you used in the illustration actually accepted the payment or not. Basically just reiterating what I said above. If he acts like that we should question of he was saved in the first place, not if 'he had salvation but then lost it'. Yes, you're right. Christians still should try their hardest to repent from their sins. If they actually love God they should try their hardest to do His will. This is just my perspective on this topic.
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Heaven
Aug 2, 2010 17:09:50 GMT -5
Post by Sandy Pines on Aug 2, 2010 17:09:50 GMT -5
This is another passage from the book that I quoted in my previous post. I thought it would be beneficial to post it here as well.
"In Revelation 3:5, Jesus said, " The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life." One might surmise that Jesus is here implying that Christians' names could potentially be blotted out of the book of life. But I do not think this is the intent of His words.
Many clear passages of Scripture point to the security of believers' salvation. The same John who wrote the book of Revelation wrote elsewhere about the security of salvation of each individual believer (see John 5:24;6:35-37,39; 10:28-39). So however Revelation 3:5 is interpreted, I do not think it should be taken to mean that believers can lose their salvation.
This passage may seem to imply that believers' names could be erased from the book of life, but it actually only gives a positive affirmation that their names will not be erased. Jesus' statement may thus be considered not a threat but indeed an assurance that saved people's names will always be in the book of life.
This seems consistent with what other verses communicate about the book of life. For example, in Luke 10:20 Jesus said to the disciples, "do not rejoice in this, that the the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven." In Hebrews 12:23 (niv) we read of "the church of the firstborn, who's names are written in heaven."
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Heaven
Aug 4, 2010 21:05:45 GMT -5
Post by thebandit on Aug 4, 2010 21:05:45 GMT -5
"(Sorry if I offend you by saying Pastor, I'm not sure what they call the church teachers in the roman catholic faith)." No, you're fine! ;D We have priests, and if a parish is fortunate enough to have more than one priest (bigger parishes have more priests, like mine, for example, has over 5,000 families, and we have three priests). In that case, the head priest is called the pastor. You might be familiar with this: we call the priests "Father". I do understand completely what you are saying. (I should get brownie points for that! ;D) I think I know how to clear things up a little. But (please don't take me wrong, or think that I'm weird, I'm just stating what I believe) as a Catholic, we don't believe in being "saved". That is not a term we use. Hear me out; we believe in being REDEEMED. There's a difference. And when I say we don't believe in being saved, I don't mean that we don't believe that Christ is the Savior of mankind or that He isn't the source of salvation, because we do. But, unlike the Protestant and other Christian religions, we don't believe that once you accept Christ, you're saved. We believe you're saved when you are, basically, in Heaven. The term redeemed means that Christ took away our sins by the sacrifice on the cross, and that He, like I said previously, re-opened the gates of Heaven. All in all, He re-gave us the chance to obtain paradise. Actually, we often call Christ the Redeemer. "From what I have read so far it seems that you believe that people have the possibility to lose their salvation." You read correct. Because I don't believe that people are saved until they go to Heaven, I believe that people "have the possibility to lose their salvation." But because God is so good, He will fill us with grace and help us to obtain salvation. I don't want to make it sound like Catholics think that Christ redeemed us and then left us here to fend for ourselves. No. He loves us. He loves sinners. He is going to help us pass the test. Especially those who love Him in return. As for those who are lost, He is searching them our thru His faithful on earth. "We also have to keep in mind that we are all sinners and all sin is equal in God's eyes. We sin almost every day. Lying or thinking dirty thoughts are just as a big of sin as getting addicted to meth or having premarital sex. All sin is equal and that sin has been paid for, It's just a matter of if the person that you used in the illustration actually accepted the payment or not." Ok, PLEASE don't take offense, because I know this might sound really strange (because I don't know how familiar you are with Catholic doctrine) but I believe different. The Catholic Chrurch has a doctrine about mortal and venial sin. Venial sin is a slighter offense against God and a mortal sin is a serious offense against Him, to give you backround. Just think real quickly. Telling a lie about, let's say, just for an example, you said you went to the park but you really went to a friend's house. You did deliberately lie. Then think about premarital sex. Yes, their both sins, but which one is worse? The lie was wrong, but the consequences are possibly being grounded, while the consequences of premarital sex are destroying the sacredness of sex, and possibly a crisis pregnacy. It could totally ruin a person's (or a couple persons') life. Now going out of the material problems, think of the spiritual problems. God is very displeased with the lie, but the premarital sex offends Him grieviously! Because those two people took what was sacred and used it disgracefully. (And just real quickly, a lie is not always a venial sin; it depends upon the degree of seriousness of the lie, just to clarify and to hopefully let you see what I'm trying to say.) Anyways, that's my point of view. And also, really quick here, a venial sin isn't to be taken lightly by any means, because we should strive to love God, but it's not as bad a mortal sin.
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ali
New Member
Posts: 20
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Heaven
Sept 3, 2010 16:51:45 GMT -5
Post by ali on Sept 3, 2010 16:51:45 GMT -5
"And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38-39 I think that's pretty clear; unless you have scripture references that say that you can lose your salvation? Sorry if that seems like I'm testing you or being rude, it's just this is important stuff here, if you have a reference, please share it! I want to know the truth.
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